Bill Derasmo speaks with Julia Souder, CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council, who shares her creative background in the energy sector, which has fueled her passion and commitment to advancing long-duration energy storage and promoting renewable energy.
In this episode of the Battery + Storage Podcast, host Bill Derasmo speaks with Julia Souder, CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council (LDESC). Julia shares her creative background in the energy sector, which has fueled her passion and commitment to advancing long-duration energy storage (LDES) and promoting renewable energy. The discussion covers the challenges and opportunities for LDES, highlighting California's leadership and initiatives, such as the California Public Utilities Commission's goal of achieving one gigawatt of LDES by 2030. Tune in to learn about the future of energy storage, the diverse technologies involved, and the importance of continued advocacy and policy support in achieving decarbonization goals.
Battery + Storage Podcast: Extending the Flexibility of Energy Storage With Julia Souder, LDESC
Hosts: Bill Derasmo
Guest: Julia Souder
Recorded: 7/29/24
Bill Derasmo:
Hello, and welcome back to the Troutman Pepper Battery + Storage Podcast. I am your host, Bill Derasmo. As we cruise through the summer of 2024, I would note at the outset that battery storage has played an important role in keeping the lights on as various regions here in the US have experienced record heat waves. I hope you're staying cool wherever you are listening to this program. Turning to the present with me today is Julia Souder. Julia is the Chief Executive Officer of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. Welcome to the program, Julia.
Julia Souder:
Thank you, Bill. It's great to be here.
Bill Derasmo:
Great to have you on today. You've been with the Long Duration Energy Storage Council for about, looks like about two and a half years, and you also simultaneously hold a few other interesting positions such as serving as the chair of the Global Renewables Alliance, serving on the board of the Keystone Policy Center, the founder and president of JASenergies, LLC. Finally, this is an interesting one, you are also a Truman political partner with the Truman National Security Project. I was intrigued by that one. But why don't I give you a chance to introduce yourself and let us know how your very interesting career and background has led you to become a leader regarding long duration energy storage.
Julia Souder:
Thanks, Bill again. It's great to be here and look forward to the dialogue today. As you're pointing out in your earlier remarks, just these ongoing temperature changes that we're feeling around the world really does put it on perspective at each one of our communities are being affected by the changes, and the intensity of the climate changes, and what's happening. That's really kind of been on the forefront of why I've really wanted to jump in and have the passion for working in long duration energy storage, is that it's one of the key tools on this path to decarbonize, to make sure that we don't keep wasting the temperatures, and just really kind of all these constant changes that are happening in our community.
So, as you put out wearing these different hats throughout my career has been kind of a fun rollercoaster ride and really have enjoyed working in the regulatory realm and the policy creative realm, and the developer realm, and being an entrepreneur really see from all different angles how critical storage is to decarbonization. And really grateful for the different hats that I've worn to help kind of lay out the pathway of why we need to work together in a collaborative way. Sharing global insights, working in local communities, and forming partnerships to address the urgency at hand. So, it's great to be part LDES Council working with members around the globe, working over 20 countries with an ecosystem that looks at corporate members, as utilities, as technology developers, as owners, and operators, as equipment manufacturers, and financiers. Again, really supporting the path to decarbonization and having partners to work on different types of LDES really does make the job really enjoyable to be part of. How do we create new policies in markets to bring in the diversity of what LDES can offer to various communities.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, why don't we just start with the basics for our audience? Well, we talked about long duration energy storage in previous programs. I've talked about this on some, but what specifically are we talking about when we talk about long duration storage?
Julia Souder:
We're talking about eight hour plus, and we're looking at intraday, weekly, monthly, and seasonal. So, you're looking at really making sure that you can have that duration of clean energy, renewable energy during those ups and downs as gaps when you don't have the wind blowing, or the sun shining. So, we give you that flexibility that we need in these new energy systems all over the world to address the variability of renewable of energy.
So, long duration storage, again, provides that flexibility of eight hours. If you want to make sure that you're kind of getting those load peak times, and having that reliability of 24/7 service. So, long duration energy storage can provide this eight hour, plus they can provide this for days, weeks, and months, even seasons. We can take the sun, and the winter, or summer, depending on where you are in the globe, and using it as heat and power in the winter. So, again, having that flexibility is so important to the role of long duration energy storage.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, and in particular here in the United States, I know California has really leaned in, as they say to long duration. Maybe you could just talk for a minute about some of the initiatives in California and the role that long duration storage has played. And looking into the future, it seems like it's going to be a really important part of the puzzle in California, and maybe the west at large.
Julia Souder:
Clear point and definitely, California's leadership, really demonstrating the role of storage it is so important. In particular, it was the first state in United States to – and actually, the first place in the world to call out long duration energy storage as a needed component to address good reliability. The California Public Utilities Commission announced a couple of years ago that they wanted a one gigawatt of long duration energy storage. That's 1000 megawatts of LDES by 2030, and it's been working on come with, it looks like by 2026, 2028, and how the procurement has really helped push forward the utilities in the state to look at diverse tools and mechanisms to bring on long duration energy storage.
At first, there was a lot of lithium ion, which has been great to see that, that short duration being covered over 10,000 megawatts is pretty impressive among the system today. But what California is realizing as many other markets around the country in the world is that, we need more than just four hours of storage. We need to have at 12, 24, 100. We need to bring on more policies to help create this. So, there's been a lot of debate, and I know a lot of lawyers and regulators in utility have scars over the resource adequacy discussion. But this is really important, because you want to make sure that you have the resources there to meet the needs of your customers and the communities, make sure that the lights stay on, and the power and the heat that you need to have your local needs met is always there.
So, there have been a lot of policy discussions over how to update resource adequacy, to make sure that there are the right tools for long duration energy storage and new market changes. And that, California Independent System Operator has done a great job of outlining the role of storage in the marketplace and trying to look at new creative ways to bring in more opportunities for credits and access for a long duration, in particular, [inaudible 0:06:04] of services. In a lot of markets today, longer duration storage is not given credit for Blackstar, frequency of response, and even in inertia.
So, how do we bring in these additional capabilities of long duration energy storage from the diverse technologies into the marketplace? What does that look like for thermal energy storage, for compressed air, for electric chemicals, all the different types of batteries, and additional lithium ion, whether it's iron, vanadium, zinc, and a lot of organic composites? Then, what does this look like for other types of mechanical, and pumped hydro, different types of liquid air. So, that diversity of storage resources really needs diversity of market access points.
So, it's great to see California continuing to have discussions on this, and now I look forward to continue to see the mandates be increased to bring more long duration energy storage into the marketplace.
Bill Derasmo:
Yes. You mentioned a lot of the different technologies or battery chemistries, like vanadium, zinc, iron oxide, just to name a few. We've talked about those on prior programs. So, when we talk about long duration, one of the things is exciting to me, and lithium ion is great, we're big fans of lithium ion, and we've had a lot of guests on talk about different variations of lithium ion, and certainly, two-hour, four-hour battery storage is great too. It can play a very important role. It's coming online very quickly, scaling up very quickly. But when we talk about long duration, I get excited because you get a diversity of battery chemistries, and different materials that can be used. Maybe you could just talk for a minute about that on your group, your LDES Council. What are some of the different battery chemistry is technologies that folks are working with?
Julia Souder:
Sure. Bill, also, you mentioned know important lithium ion is. We have some members that do lithium ion too, ad look at the eight hour plus, and there is kind of a tradeoffs of costs. But again, we need to have many types of storage, and many types, the diversity of long duration energy storage. What we really like to show is that within long duration, there are four families that can give you that eight hours, you've got the thermal, you're looking at whether it's like sensible heat, heat and thermal chemical, which shows, are you going solid to liquid? Are you doing heats? Are you kind of looking at whether it's steam?
There's a lot of different options. Really, this group also really works with the hard to beat sectors. So, looking at industry, agriculture, chemical, mining, even transportation. How can we bring on green heat, green steam, that can really be part of long duration energy storage and kind of using pristine assets too? So, it's really important to kind of look at also emissions reductions and ranch proficiency. There's a lot of great information on our website about our different reports. Though they haven't report on net zero heat, they kind of dives into this a bit more, the different technologies that exist.
Then, on electrochemical, we mentioned the different types of flow batteries, metal anode batteries, we've got different types of nonmetal chemical storage, whether it's neutralizers and hydrogen, or whether it's carbon. There, again, it's a really kind of impressive group of different types of options, even within vanadium and different types of groups that work in this. So, having a diversity of very environmentally safe, accessible minerals, even kind of looking at the ESG, environmental, social, governance, sustainability aspects of ecoability and recyclability.
We’re looking at taking the scraps from other metals and repurposing it. That's a big part of our work too. Mechanical, we like to kind of comment on the kind of grandparents of long duration energy storage and pumped hydro, being around for over 100 years, and compressed air over 20. Really bringing those shared lessons learned about marketplaces and just attributes of how to build in planning Permian, and siting, and other contributions to market visibility.
We're looking at what's happening with closed-loop pumped hydro, gravity based, new innovations on technologies, compressed air. Looking at, I think I mentioned, liquid air, liquid carbon, and there's lots of different types of new turbines that are being introduced. So, we've got a nice kind of diversity within our group to looking at different types of mechanical storage. Then, chemical, looking at hydrogen and ammonia, looking at different ways to, again, kind of push forward that whole ecosystem of power, heat, and hydrogen, and that diversity that's so important. But again, this demonstrates how long duration energy storage really does touch that different – help to decarbonize in every single industry that's out there.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, shout out to pumped storage hydro, the OG of storage. I've practiced in this area for a long time, and I know from experience that some of the pumped storage hydro facilities around the country are just so critical and so important to reliable operation, the grid, that Blenheim-Gilboa project in New York State, the pump storage project in Ludington. I was trying to think of in Michigan. Two great examples, ones that I'm familiar with, and there are plenty of others. But yes, I know, pumped storage hydro, compressed air, those are technologies we don't talk as much about anymore, but still very important.
On the long duration piece, yes, they're really the ones that set the standard. In terms of long duration storage, one thing I was thinking about was the winter storm Elliot experienced in PJM, and it caused a lot of heartache, I think, for FERC, and NERC, and PJM, and the people in the region. One of the things I was thinking about was pumped storage hydro, and it was a really interesting dilemma, I think, for the PJM operators, were it was a multi-day or evening event. It wasn't just a quick thing that happened, and then it passed. So, they really had this dilemma on whether they refilled the reservoirs at night, and that you're – sorry, pumped at night to refill the reservoirs, which would have taken more energy, but the temperatures had really plunged overnight. So, it created this real problem.
But I think one of the things I was thinking about as you're talking about the different technologies is that, if you have different forms of long duration energy storage, then maybe that could ameliorate for that type of problem, right?
Julia Souder:
Definitely.
Bill Derasmo:
So, if you had a vanadium, for instance, based long duration storage, then you might have been able to pump at night to refill those reservoirs and not worried about it, because you would have had another source of energy. Just as an example. So, it speaks to the importance, I think continued importance of energy diversity. In this case, the diversity of the different storage technologies. There probably other reasons for that, too, like supply chain. In terms of development, it makes it easier if we're not just all trying to get lithium ion online.
But in any event, if you were talking to other regions around the country, besides say, California, who's kind of been a leader on this, what would your pitch be to them to say, look – or different states or whoever's in charge of resource procurement. What would your pitch be to say, "Look, you guys don't have any long duration storage on the system, or you don't have much, or whatever it is. But you really should take a look at doing something along the lines of what California has done to beef up that part of your portfolio"?
Julia Souder:
I'll say three things. One, I'd say, there's already been some great work by other states in the US too. New York has mentioned updates to their long duration energy storage procurement, and their kind of public-private partnerships. So, one, I'd say is, mandates work. They really do help push the marketplace, and really do validate the need, and really bring in diverse projects so that you can meet different needs of your portfolio. So, having specific long duration energy storage target mandates is one. Two, that public-private partnership is three – this is a good point. It's really important. California has also done a lot of great work of hopping with pilots in the last decade, and then now, bringing and scaling opportunities to really kind of start really commercializing, to then bring even lower costs, and bring more benefits to customers. So, that's really helpful.
Then, also, looking at a third point is how to build out that public-private partnership with, for example, federal government. So, entities like the US Department of Energy with their loan guarantee program has really provided a lot of assistance. But in addition, through the various grants and other projects, we've seen 10 of our member companies get a lot of great partnerships with utilities and different partners around the country to work on whether it's pumped hydro in Kentucky, whether it's thermal energy storage in Alaska, whether it's gravity based in the Midwest. There's just been a lot of great opportunities for projects to really kind of come online and really demonstrate the value add.
I think one myth to kind of demystify is that, long duration energy storage is out there. Not only pumped hydro and compressed air, but there are a lot of companies that have had projects out for over a decade. What we need to show is that these projects are smaller, need to scale, and it need much more commercial. So, again, having those mandates are so important, having those public private partnerships, and then having the right market criterion access. A lot of the modeling and data out there needs to be updated, because you're not even capturing the benefits, or the variety of scenarios to address this multiday event that you can have. And every state around the country really needs that, again, the kind of mandates, public-private partnerships, the modeling market access, so that you really can bring on the benefits of LDES.
Again, whether it's a duck curve in California, whether it's a dragon or a camel. If not, everyone's starting to have these different kinds of issues to address the marketplace, and having a clear market, promoting the different benefits of long duration energy storage and different access points for different entry of eight-hour, 24, 100 is really critical.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, that's a good point about the different market structures and market products. So, in the short term, you might talk about more regions adopting ramping type projects. Then, for the long term, you might have to think creatively, but that's really an important issue, because when we get into the extreme weather, it seems like we're getting into more of these multi-day events. We saw winter storm Elliot, it was an example I mentioned earlier. There was winter storm Yuri, of course before that.
Then, on the summer, look, it's just this summer that you can speak to it. Now, the regents have done a great job of getting through it, and hats off to the folks in the ISO control rooms around the country, and PJM's control room in New York, et cetera. They've done a great job, but you keep talking about how we're getting tighter and tighter with our reserve margins, and looming needs that are on the horizon. With these multi-day type events, whether they're extreme cold or extreme heat, that's what starts to really make me nervous, because a lot of the stories that has come online, like I said, it's great, big fan, two-hour, four-hour batteries. But we got to start getting into the longer duration technologies, because these weather events don't tend to be two-hour and four-hour events.
Julia Souder:
Right. The close calls that you're pointing to are more than we know about. My days at NERC and working – I'm back in DC with all the red disease, it's like, the operators do a phenomenal job, but we're really confining them more and more. We really need to kind of show that it's not just an N minus one, or N minus two. The N minus 10 events that we thought, whatever, 20 years or now every year. So, we have to change the scenarios and the modeling that we're doing to really kind of update this and change the policies to address this urgency.
Customers are only going to take so much more, whether it's power sent off, announcements or alerts, or request for conserving. We all like to chip in and do that. But after three or four days, it gets harder and harder on families and communities.
Bill Derasmo:
Absolutely.
Julia Souder:
So, we need to have more LDES in there to help kind of buffer the effects and provide more reliability.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, one thing I wanted to touch on, and maybe this is shifting gears a little bit. But in your background, I see a linkage between energy security and national security national defense. So, I was wondering if you could speak to that. Not necessarily – well, it could be a long duration energy storage topic, but it's a broader topic, I think. I just saw it in your background, when I was prepping for this interview. It hit me, it piqued my interest. So, I was wondering if you could just talk about that for a little bit.
Julia Souder:
Bill, you did some good digging. You've found the work on cybersecurity standards. That's awesome. When we had this close calls, it was kind of a wakeup call to really understand the synergies of not only the water and energy nexus, but the energy and gas nexus, and how they communicate, and how to kind of work on security there. Then, it also brought in just kind of the new awareness of being with our SCADA systems, EMS, and just all the different ways that operators and grids were communicating with each other, how important it was to have protection. And just really kind of do a lot of updates to understanding the security of data centers, and security of just data itself, that the grid operators are in charge of and how to protect them.
Then, really, kind of moving into just back to the days of working on the 2003 blackout investigation. Communication failures were such a big issue of one the three faults, and really showing how important as we evolve in our communications and even with artificial intelligence. How central it is to have the right types of security measures. Which then brings in the role of the US Department of Defense, and just the military, and just how it's been on the forefront in many ways to kind of protect its assets, and how to look at the costs of fossil fuels, and how giving access to fossil fuels in many of the communities is very difficult. So, looking at different options.
Over a decade ago, they started looking at different roles for military bases to bring on long duration energy storage because they needed to have something accessible and also kind of continued to help push forward some of the research that was very innovative back then. Now, to me, those projects have been commercialized and kind of on the marketplace. So, it is great to have the support and just kind of the awareness of how long duration energy storage is such a critical component to addressing security needs.
Many islands actually around the world are using backup diesel generators for whether it's hotels, or many other elements of local cleaning needs, and that's very expensive. Today, many of these facilities are being replaced with long duration energy storage to provide that security. Just because it's is relying on fossil fuels, and geopolitical aspects as a whole another layer of cost.
Bill Derasmo:
Well, it's really interesting to hear. The other one I was thinking of was that, your work with the Truman Foundation – Truman National Security Project, excuse me. If you could just speak to the to that work as well.
Julia Souder:
It's a great organization based in DC, and it really focuses on bringing together experts in diplomacy, and security, and public policy. So, you're looking at kind of three groups coming together to share insights, to address national security through diplomacy, building on Schuman's principles after World War Two, the kind of the Marshall Plan, and really kind of creating, how can we build diplomacy, looking at security and bringing in energy as a key component could be a tool of partnership.
So, we bring together groups who work on existing military policies today, existing insights, whether it's security, whether it's financing, just how to kind of bring together a perspective of the different silos to come together, and kind of share insights, and opportunities to kind of each help each other push our – whether it's agencies goals, adjusters different missions. But again, have that partnership with industry, and public agencies to again, share the most latest information, expertise, and really just build on those partnerships. So, it's a fantastic organization to learn from each other and really push for on those principles of the Schuman doctrine, using diplomacy first.
Bill Derasmo:
Oh, it sounds fascinating.
Julia Souder:
Yes. It's a great group that works really hard, and really brings together a lot of great individuals from around the country. So, it's a wonderful to have really true experts in certain areas, and then people who are really interested in policy, and then those who are in the military, or veterans who are really trying to find that bridge. They're helping veterans build solar, or whether you're creating companies to kind of really bringing new ways to move away from fossil fuels for security. It's great group. Whether it's creating documentaries on different things too, yes, a lot of awareness.
Bill Derasmo:
That's fantastic. Well, did you see the Oppenheimer movie?
Julia Souder:
Oh, yes. Love New Mexico.
Bill Derasmo:
What was your opinion of it?
Julia Souder:
Oppenheimer, yes, I saw it. I love New Mexico. Gosh, the screenshots are beautiful. I think, as humans, we love our storytelling, and it definitely gives us a perspective, and I think there was great acting involved. I really enjoyed watching it. But I think it brought together a lot of questions about balancing interests, and kind of push and pull of national security, and how do you weigh the opportunities and risks. I think it really does put in perspective the need to really kind of work collaboratively, and push back and forth on asking the hard questions. Will this really work and what else do we need to get there? I think that's what we've been doing with long duration energy storage. We know how important this is, we know that we're not alone, that there are partners around the world who see this as a critical tool for decarbonization and critical asset. So, I think there's some great storylines in there that kind of build upon that. But yes, it was a good movie.
Bill Derasmo:
You're probably wondering why I asked you this, because when you said Truman, and I remember the portrayal in the movie. But, I mean, he's a lot more than just what was in the movie.
Julia Souder:
Oh, very much so.
Bill Derasmo:
Yes. In my opinion, he's one of the great presidents, certainly in the 20th century. But yes, great movie overall. You're right, I think it raises a lot of questions that are not easy to answer. A lot of obviously, moral dilemmas, and who was – anyway, fascinating story. Next thing we'll do is we'll do a podcast on movies, and then we can have you back on.
Julia Souder:
[Inaudible 0:23:31]. You're bringing my east LA experience in growing up there.
Bill Derasmo:
I didn't realize that that was one party background I missed. So, growing up in LA, that's cool. That's very cool. Well, I think it's been a great discussion, and I hope you've enjoyed it. Like I said, I think we had so many programs that talked about shorter duration. We have had some different technologies that we've talked about, that have been more suited to long duration. So, when I saw – I came across your background somewhere. I was like, "Oh. We have a Long Duration Energy Storage Council. That's something that I got to learn more about." Then, I thought, well, Julia would make a great guest. So, I'm really glad that we had you on, and I hope you enjoyed the interview. I'll let you have the last word and add anything you want to the discussion.
Julia Souder:
Thank you, Bill, so much. It's a great conversation, and I love where you took us, and just all the insights that we discussed, and that you shared with me too. Last year, we started off kind of on the global conversation, want to connect it back to that in local communities. The tripling renewables goal was established cop, the global conference of all the climate negotiators, and for 11 terawatts of renewable energy by 2030. This year, there's a global push for a global energy storage target and long duration energy storage is critical to achieving the 11 terawatts renewable energy. What this means for the United States is that we have long ways to go. I think what's great is that we have some mandates, but we need to push a little bit harder. So, looking forward to work with you at Troutman and many others, to really kind of promote the need for these mandates, and all the regulatory, and policy changes that need to take place to make this happen. So, again, thank you so much to the opportunity and look forward to all future collaborations.
Bill Derasmo:
Likewise. Look forward to working with you however we can, and I think we had a great program today. Until next time, we'll see you then.
Julia Souder:
Thank you, Bill.
Copyright, Troutman Pepper Hamilton Sanders LLP. These recorded materials are designed for educational purposes only. This podcast is not legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individual participants. Troutman Pepper does not make any representations or warranties, express or implied, regarding the contents of this podcast. Information on previous case results does not guarantee a similar future result. Users of this podcast may save and use the podcast only for personal or other non-commercial, educational purposes. No other use, including, without limitation, reproduction, retransmission or editing of this podcast may be made without the prior written permission of Troutman Pepper. If you have any questions, please contact us at troutman.com.